Important Notice, Response to Input and Update to the K-8 Proposal

I am a Mom at Howe and I am very relieved that the district reconsidered the proposal. I never saw the change as progress for Howe School. At best, it MAY have helped Howe students once they were no longer elementary school age.
I appreciate Karen Kirstein sharing research she found on the K-8 model. I read the same study she posted right after this proposal was made public. It does make the K-8 model sound promising for an urban district like ours. However, I am concerned about the perception that the K-8 model will solve our problems.

The fact is that ANY structure of school has the potential to be a great school - (Pre K-K, K-2, K-6, K-8, 6-8, 7-8, etc.) It really just depends on what you do with it. Obviously, the middle school population poses special challenges, but there are very successful urban middle schools out there too. Maybe we should find out what makes them work. On the flip side, any of these structures has the potential to be a failure too. Again, it all depends on what you do with it.

The bottom line is that great leadership, a cohesive, dedicated teaching staff, and building a true community of learners help to shape a great school - regardless of structure.

Howe International Magnet School in its current form has these components in place. That's why it works.

I agree excited parent, why is no one getting upset that King is going to a K-8. If the Howe building was able to hold 7th & 8th there would be no debate here, none, just as there is none for King. The only reason this is happening is because for Howe to go K-8, it has to move to a new building. I think it would be the best move to make the only other true magnet left a K-8 as well.
Moving the middle school kids from CP into the other two will not change the amount of kids at them since there is no longer 6th graders in them, other then a few at MP. So taking that issue out of the equation and the fact that they do not want to keep CP as a middle school regardless and they plan to change the feeder system anyway, let Howe move to CP. I do not send my child to Howe for the location or building; I do it for the program just as others send their kids to King for the program.
Everyone keeps forgetting what they want to do with the Howe building, why not let them open another Pre-K? Do you all not realize there is a waiting list to get into the only one they truly have now. Plus having continuing education there at night would benefit the high school kids since it would free up more room for their night activities. Look at the big picture, why add yet another whole new school for the younger kids to the district. This way it’s only moving one they already have to be the same as the other magnet school and opening for a wider age range at the Howe building. As parents we do not see all that admin does and I’m assuming they have a better idea of how things should be worked out. They are not saying or at least I have not heard them say, this move is going to raise taxes, that happens regardless.
Starting a whole new K-8 will bring tension not only to Howe but to other schools, especially third graders and up, do you think the kids are going to want to leave there friends to start a new school? I’m sure parents will hear about that from their kids if they do, that’s a lot to them but as parents yes we make the ultimate decisions for them but then we have to hope the new school is all that we wanted for our kids. With no theme or really extra money to support it as it should be how does this seem to make sense? Howe will not stay as it is with all the same staff, even if it stays where it is, new parents need to understand that!!!! If the district is not going to use CP for the older kids in anyway and they truly just want it to become a K-8 building no matter how it’s done, then put the Howe program there, keep it a magnet still. And forget about the great plans for the Howe building, leave it as a K-6 for those that do not want to leave the area or building, and make it a new neighborhood school. This way you don’t have to try and come up with a new theme that may not work and those at Howe that send their kids for the program can move to CP and then do a new lottery. Change is coming people, I know some have a harder time than others with it but we need to deal in a positive way for our kids.

Wow – this has been wonderfully educational. The more I ask, the more I look, the more I learn about the school my children attend.

Howe has been called a “neighborhood school” and I got to wondering about that reality since I know Howe is a magnet school. I looked on the district web page, pulled down Howe School, and looked under the choice called “About Our School.” I was quite amazed to learn that Howe was an “open school” for many years before it became a magnet. My best friend when I was a kid, Sue, went to the open school – back in the 70’s (blush) when I was elementary school-aged. She must have gone to Howe. I went to Elmer.

Howe became a magnet school in 1989. That is much longer ago than I thought, 20 years! For the past 20 years, Howe has not been a neighborhood school. Howe International Magnet School is not a neighborhood school in that it serves students across the city, not just those residing in the 12309 zip code. Families must participate in a lottery before starting kindergarten in order to attend. The vast majority of students ride the bus to school from all areas of the city.

A 20-year stay in a single location would be quite a hard trend to break. I can certainly understand why there is reluctance to make this move, but sometimes we have to do something difficult in order to bring about something new. I find it quite fascinating that if the magnet were to move, Howe would actually become a neighborhood school again. Kindergarteners and pre-schoolers from the neighborhoods on and around Baker Avenue would be encouraged to attend, to walk to school with their moms and dads, and to go to a school that is right up the block. With all those people on foot, folks are bound to wander up to Upper Union Street for a cookie from Salamacks or sandwiches from Gershons. Stop at Trusco Bank or shop for a special little something from Northeastern Fine Jewelry. Additionally, the parents of these children would have the opportunity to take classes to increase their employability (say, a computer class). Isn’t that something we as a society should encourage? And, equally cool, evening adult education classes from sign language to ballroom dancing will attract more mature citizens to this bountiful neighborhood. My parents have taken sign language at evening classes for years. How nice for them to be able to grab a cup of coffee before heading into class.

"I do not send my child to Howe for the location or building; I do it for the program just as others send their kids to King for the program." - Parent & Homeowner

I am not sure what you mean when you say "program". Do you mean Spanish? Chinese? The international theme in general? Please remember, that the program is nothing more than the teacher who teaches it.

For example, if you give most people a canvas and the best brushes and paints, you will never get a Picasso, because painting is not their talent.

So having a "program" that teaches Spanish is really meaningless in the wrong hands. It is the playful and engaging way that Senor Handel teaches it that makes my little one excited and come home speaking Spanish every day. In fact, in the wrong hands, your children could be turned off to learning a language for good.

Please remember, teaching is all about people. Not programs, not "stuff", and not buildings. It is the everyday interactions that our children have with the people we trust to teach them.

A move like this would have put us at risk for losing many teachers and our principal. The principal and the teachers are the program.

Under this revised proposal where do the 7th and 8th graders of Keane , Blodgett and FDR get fed to?

I apologise if this was mentioned somewhere else and if it was , point me in the right thread.

Karen,

Howe was established in 1910 (I believe it opened in 1911), also a great note here is that additions to the building were made in the 50's (1953 I believe). The fallicy that an addition cannot be added is simply not true, it can be done.

Also, once the elementary school leaves Baker Avenue, it will negatively affect the area. Howe has been there for almost 100 years (be it a neighborhood or magnet school, it's always been elementary). It brings stability to a neighborhood and being that it's an excellently performing elementary school, it's quite a gem to Schenectady. Let's take a look at the Fulton School area and make simple comparisions. A house is selling on Baker Ave (2 family) for $168,500 and another on Turner Ave (down the street from Fulton) is priced at $134,900. A single family home 2 blocks up from Fulton $139,900, a single family on Baker $149,500.

Bellevue has just as many businesses (Hudson River Bank & Trust, Frank Gallo, Bellevue Diner) as does Upper Union, are those pre-k parents helping out the businesses, most likely yes. But it's the neighborhood dynamic which changes once an elementary school leaves. It's the selling point of the neighborhood, it brings stability, it can make or break a neighborhood. I personally love where Howe is now, on a one way, with a bus circle in a great area.

Also, I don't think a pre-k or K in that area would be just for that neighborhood. The Superintendent simply stated that it would become a pre-k, not a neighborhood pre-k school. Please correct me if I'm wrong Karen, but I do not think that was ever on the table. Also, my concern is the adult ed with a pre-k. Doesn't sound very safe to me (what if an adult ed student comes during the day for one reason or another). Is that person going to be around pre-k children?

Thanks,
Joyce Wachala

When I say program yes I mean the international theme and when I chose Howe, I didn’t know the teachers or staff, I only knew of the theme and that is what I wanted for my child. If it moves to CP there would be no need for those teachers at the Howe building, they would be needed at CP, correct? So why would Senor Handel, one of my child’s favorite teachers lose his job, he would be needed at CP. I’m assuming you’re newer to the school so you did not have the opportunity to see us lose teachers last year and not just a couple, so you haven’t heard from your child, as I have mine, they miss a certain teacher. If a whole new school is made, you don’t believe any teachers from Howe would move to it, think again. Mrs. Coffey is not going to be there much longer, she will probably be retiring, then what, that will be a great change, why not move now when she is still here and can possibly help advice the new principal. Teachers have moved into and out of Howe but those staple teachers are mostly still there and I would assume have tenure by now and would have the choice to move, whether they decide to is up to them. Over the past couple years a few new teachers have come and have become well liked by parents and that can happen again. I see no reason the First Proposal would not work or the other option of making Howe a neighborhood school again for those stuck on the location and building and move the theme to CP. Since the theme has proven to work for the past 20 years it should have the opportunity to work for kids longer (meaning to 8th grade) and move to the Central Park building with as many teachers that would like to continue to help make the theme what it is. If teachers do not want to, which I’m sure some are also afraid of change then with the theme being as good as it and lasting as long as it has, I’m sure there are great teachers out there that would love the opportunity to be a part of the international theme.

I think that we all need to accept the fact that teachers/staff and administrators are going to lose jobs no matter if the Howe program gets moved to CP as a K-8 or remains in the Howe building now K-6. We were assured of this at the Howe meeting with Mr. Ely- and it has not much to do with any proposal it is the economy! Many families find themselves in this same situation everyday now. I would imagine that with the new proposal that teachers will be taken from every one of the elementary schools across the district to fill all of the new openings that will be required. As it has been pointed out- none of the staff is tenured to a particular building but to the district. If the Howe k-8 proposal is considered I believe that would probably be the best way that most of the staff we are so fortunate to be with now would be able to make the move, if the contracts allow for it and if they decided they wanted to make the move. One thing though is certain the Howe staff that we are with now, will not be the same Howe staff next year and as parents we have no real in-put on that issue as it has everything to do with their unions, contracts, senority.

If the first proposal is not to be considered- I would like to see the Howe International magnet program moved to CP as a K-8 with the lottery systems set up as had been explained, with special consideration given to families with children in different grades. Howe then should be a 'neighborhood" school with the housing of a Pre-k for this side of town. And if the room is available adult education or continuing education at night. That is a good use of the Howe buiding- we do not lose the Magnet theme and the district then also has 2 K-8 programs and anyone who wants to send their children to the K-8 program will hopefully have the opportunity.

Mary Kay,

At each meeting, the Superintendent explained that this move would be "cost neutral", not based on any economic condition. Also, if we need to cut jobs as a district, then lets do that on a district wide basis, not just from the teachers at Howe.

We do agree on one thing (and honestly, I never thought I'd say that), but make a k-8 at CP with preference for the Howe students in the lower grades and preference for Woodlawn and Paige at the upper grades and leave the current Howe school in tact. The reason I say this is because I want my children to experience the Howe program as it is now. Many of the parents for this proposal do have older children and have all ready had the great teachers and experience of Howe. I want that experience for my children too.

We all ready had k-8 in Schenectady once and it's now gone. What happens if in a few years the CP model is abandoned? Where will the Howe program be then? Are we then back to a middle school program? How is the administration going to assure us that the CP k-8 doesn't fall to the same fate as the Woodlawn k-8?

I've asked the administration once on this board that question and have yet to receive an answer.

Thanks,
Joyce Wachala

You can not compare the Bellevue area to the Upper Union area, there is no comparison and it’s not because of the schools, it’s the businesses and people. I lived in Bellevue for eight years and grew up in Rotterdam before buying my home in the Upper Union area. Besides Bellevue just being an older neighborhood it had one of the main stores on Broadway close a few years ago and since, the area has not been the same, nothing to do with the schools. Van Corlaer is a great school over there, I toured all the possibilities for my child including private schools before choosing Howe and if we didn’t get into Howe I would have chosen Van.

Howe being a magnet school is not what makes this area or what make the businesses run, come on. Union Street is used by Niskayuna residents, kids and parents just as much as Schenectady, 12309 is part of Niskayuna and the businesses know this.

Have you heard of the high school having issues from adult ed. people coming during the day? The Howe building is very secure and actually just this year or last got the sensors outside the doors, I don’t see why that would change if Pre-K was there, people would still only be able to get in thru the main office. Plus if a Pre-K opened at Howe, you don’t think people like yourself that love this area would prefer to send there child to this side of town?

I believe someone was reading my idea of a different opinion where I suggested the program/theme from Howe move to CP and for those who just like Howe mainly for the location, keep it K-6 but turn it back into a neighborhood school. That would mean the theme at Howe goes to CP, not both. And since the theme has lasted as long as it has, I do not see it being abandoned just as King's theme will stay strong as a K-8. Just giving admin more options as others have and throwing ideas and thoughts out there, that’s what this is all about, right?

Just want to let the few people whom seem to be cooresponding back and forth here, I am taking a break to digest the information at hand. I hope to see all you Howe families at the meeting on Tuesday. Karen

Again, I would like to pose this question to the administration, if CP does become a k-8, what precautions or different approach will we take in order for the model not to be abandoned in the future (as was the Woodlawn k-8 program).

As well, we have spoken about a pre-k and adult education in the same building. Aren't people who are in the same school as pre-schoolers (custodians, teachers) need to have a criminal record screening. Wouldn't this screening also apply to adult education students in the same building as well? If the general public can sign up for a class (as I understand it), and they wanted to come into the building to work on a computer or some sort of project during the daytime (pre-school hours) how would we keep track?

Thank you,
Joyce Wachala

I blieve that I need to be a bit clearer. I am in favor of moving the Howe International Magnet Program to the CP building as a K-8 If in doing so it opens up the existing Howe Building perhaps it could then become a neightborhood school and not have a association with a Magnet of any theme. That way all of the staff who have been trained with the Magnet program move with the program and the district will need to fill those positions open in the neighborhood school- perhaps there are not enough children in that neighborhod to fill the Howe
Building? But I am in favor of the Howe magnet Program moving to CP as a K-8.

I do not envy your job admin and give you and everyone involved in this process the greatest respect! Good luck and just remember our children’s fate is in your hands, please make the decision you truly think is best for the district overall and do not let people wear you guys down!

I have to admit at first I was 100% against this for a variety of reasons. I was concerned with the lack of logistical details that I felt needed to be addressed and the different maturity levels of the students and how they would interact. I have attended every meeting I possibly could, have posted, asked questions, and made statements publicly. I have asked principals and other teachers in my district I work with, as well as colleagues from around the state, about this and they have all had a negative reaction to a K-8 model. Why is that? I have read all the research as well; I have visited websites of numerous urban districts who have instituted a K-8 model to see what I could find out. Unfortunately it seems as if King moving to a K-8 program is already a done deal, and if my daughter went to King I would have had the same concerns I have had throughout this process. But if the K-8 model is what the district is looking to institute then they have an obligation to do this right. I asked the Superintendent at the CP meeting (and yes you can check the videotape) if any staff had visited districts that had K-8 schools and he told me that several years ago they had, I am assuming five years or so ago when this was first proposed. I would like to know if there has been any follow-up recently (like this year) to see how this model has panned out in those urban school districts and to ask what they would or would not do again if given the chance. As a mom, teacher and taxpayer I want to know that the Howe/CP K-8 school, in whatever form it takes, as well as King are given all the resources to provide the success of this model in Schenectady so it will not be abandoned in the future, regardless of what my family will personally decide to do. I would appreciate it if the Board and Superintendent could address this at one of the upcoming meetings and post a reply as well.

teachermom wrote:

I have to admit at first I was 100% against this for a variety of reasons. I was concerned with the lack of logistical details that I felt needed to be addressed and the different maturity levels of the students and how they would interact. I have attended every meeting I possibly could, have posted, asked questions, and made statements publicly. I have asked principals and other teachers in my district I work with, as well as colleagues from around the state, about this and they have all had a negative reaction to a K-8 model. Why is that? I have read all the research as well; I have visited websites of numerous urban districts who have instituted a K-8 model to see what I could find out. Unfortunately it seems as if King moving to a K-8 program is already a done deal, and if my daughter went to King I would have had the same concerns I have had throughout this process. But if the K-8 model is what the district is looking to institute then they have an obligation to do this right. I asked the Superintendent at the CP meeting (and yes you can check the videotape) if any staff had visited districts that had K-8 schools and he told me that several years ago they had, I am assuming five years or so ago when this was first proposed. I would like to know if there has been any follow-up recently (like this year) to see how this model has panned out in those urban school districts and to ask what they would or would not do again if given the chance. As a mom, teacher and taxpayer I want to know that the Howe/CP K-8 school, in whatever form it takes, as well as King are given all the resources to provide the success of this model in Schenectady so it will not be abandoned in the future, regardless of what my family will personally decide to do. I would appreciate it if the Board and Superintendent could address this at one of the upcoming meetings and post a reply as well.

All good points. With data inconclusive on the positives of K-8, why jump in feet first with two K-8's? Why not go with one and postpone a decision until they get a couple of years of data and see if this is actually working? I don't see any guarantees or future plans in case this fails because I feel they have exhausted all the resources making this go through.
I hope they respond and answer your questions.

Thank you for the response.

Admin wrote:

HoweMom2 wrote:

I read thru it and i don't quite understand....Are they gonna make another magnet/theme school at CMPS and still keep howe they way it is? What happens regarding Howe? That is where my daughter is going next year and i want the picture to be clearer.

A: At this point, the Howe proposal does not have the necessary support to be viable as an alternative for the district to expand the program to a K-8 setting. The revised proposal would leave Howe in its current location and its current K-6 form and create a K-8 at Central Park using a lottery program.

First and Foremost I would like to say that I send my children to Howe not because of where it is located or because of the building that it is in. I send my children to Howe because of the PROGRAM, yes, the program. I believe that my children should learn about languages and cultures because of the global economy in which we live today. My children have been fortunate enough to have traveled to Myan Ruins in Mexico, explore Ecuadorian Andes, French Montreal, and the West Indies because of the things that they have been exposed to in Howe school program. I want my children to be able to appreciate and respect ways of living other than their own and I feel that they have been taught this at Howe. I don't think it has anything to do with the school being on a one way street or having a bus loop.

I feel sorry for the parent who thinks that the Howe program is just Spanish and just recently, Chinese. Howe does many things to teach and introduce cultures such as Breakfast around the world, where students "travel" to other countries to eat breakfast, Chinese New Year, International Dinner (BTW, is March 6th), English Tea Parties, Exchange teachers who rotate from classroom to classroom, teaching students about their clothing, foods, music, dances, ect. The art program teaches students about art in other cultures as well as artist from other counties and their style of design. I am sure that these same things can be done in ANY building and not just on Baker Ave.

I am a life long resident of Schenectady and am proud of the city in which I live. I think Central Park is an asset to our city and the houses on Bradley and Nora ave are beautiful homes. I would like to add that I patronize the shops that I do not because my children go to Howe but because I LIVE HERE! If the school moves across the park I will continue to patronize the same shops!

I would also like to think that the same precautions taken to provide a safe environment for ALL schools in the district would hold true for a PreK-K program, such as doors being locked during school hours and any visitors would have to come to the office. I am sure any adult ed student would have to come to the office and not be allowed to just roam about the building during those PreK- K hours. It was also stated that the new PreK-K program would be for Northside, again, I grew up here so I know what and where Northside as a neighborhood is.

I would like to conclude that I do NOT believe our students learn because the building is on a one way street or because the homes on that street may cost more than another section of town!

I must say I think the new proposal is much better. It seems more fair to the rest of the district. I felt like Howe was getting special treatment and this is much more reasonable. That being said I would love for the district to strive for K-8 in all our schools.

After reading the new proposal again, I must add that I think if given a choice, parents in the rest of the district would like the same opportunity as the parents at Howe, to have our children in a K-8 school! I feel that currently Howe should have no more of a preference than anyone else, and to state that they do is unfair.

My son is in Kindergarten this year and I will eventually have 3 children in school, each a grade apart and would love for them to be in school together as long as possible, for them and myself. For me it would be nice to eliminate middle school so that I wouldn't have 1 in high school, 1 in middle school and 1 still in elementary. Again, I would love for the district to strive for all K-8 schools.

I agree with Parent and Homeowner - Move the program and any teachers/families that want to go to CP and make the International Magnet school K-8 just like King at Central Park. All remaining families and teachers who want to stay at Howe and finish their K-6 let them and return Howe to a regular themed neighborhood school. Fill their vacancies with the neighborhood children that didn't get in with the lottery and fill the CP magnet vacancies holding a lottery giving those priorities as stated to Pleasant Valley, Paige and Woodlawn.

In the second proposal, Mr. Ely, you stated you wanted to give Howe families priority in the initial post and then when answering our questions after your post you pretty much told the parents who wanted this that they wouldn't be able to go now. The majority of those who wanted this at Howe have more than one child and some of them are 4th, 5th, and 6th grade children. As per your answer, we would have to enter the lottery and take the possibility of not getting all of our children in together.

Tomorrow, we at Howe will like to ask any Board Member who can attend to please attend to see for yourselves before your meeting on Wednesday night how many parents want this and whether or not we can come to a proposal that satisfies the budget and the families of all the children that this is affecting. Adding a new school and taking away a few kids from each of the schools to fill it will make those other neighborhood schools go down in size and may not even be ran to capacity. Adding a third lottery school would do just that. Take away the lottery filling at Howe and make Central Park the second lottery school but please allow any family at Howe to go with their program if that is why they attend Howe now. There still will be plenty of openings to offer it to the rest of the city.

Adminstrator- with the new proposal- if Howe is left K-6 for the next school year, where will the 6th graders feed into for 7th. I have heard 2 different things one was the 'feeder" school system would remain the same ( any Howe student in the K-6 would attend Mont Pleasant) and then I was told that no in essence State Street is the divider everyone who lives on the Mont Pleasant side goes to Mont Pleasant and everyone on the Onieda side of State Street- attend Oneida unless you are of course in a K-8 program. Also if this second proposal is accepted my daughter will be in 3rd grade next year if we apply for the K-8 program in the lottery and her name is pulled would there be a opening in the 7th grade program at the k-8 school for my son who is currently in 6th grade?

A Schdy Lifer wrote:

I agree with Parent and Homeowner - Move the program and any teachers/
In the second proposal, Mr. Ely, you stated you wanted to give Howe families priority in the initial post and then when answering our questions after your post you pretty much told the parents who wanted this that they wouldn't be able to go now. The majority of those who wanted this at Howe have more than one child and some of them are 4th, 5th, and 6th grade children. As per your answer, we would have to enter the lottery and take the possibility of not getting all of our children in together.

Tomorrow, we at Howe will like to ask any Board Member who can attend to please attend to see for yourselves before your meeting on Wednesday night how many parents want this and whether or not we can come to a proposal that satisfies the budget and the families of all the children that this is affecting. Adding a new school and taking away a few kids from each of the schools to fill it will make those other neighborhood schools go down in size and may not even be ran to capacity. Adding a third lottery school would do just that. Take away the lottery filling at Howe and make Central Park the second lottery school but please allow any family at Howe to go with their program if that is why they attend Howe now. There still will be plenty of openings to offer it to the rest of the city.

Again, this reeks of favoritism. The Howe Community want everything their way.
Teachers , programs, keeping their children together, smaller classes, options to stay or go.
I agree on some points and not in your favor.
Yes, see how many parents want this. But not just Howe parents! It wouldn't even be close.
Yes, satisfy the families that this is effecting. And believe me it's not just Howe parents.
I disagree that their will be plenty of openings to offer to the rest of the city.

Mr. Janiszewski has stated that the only reason the Howe parents were afforded a survey, at his urging , I understand, was because their school was closing.
This seems short-sighted and doesn't take into consideration the effect this has on the MAJORITY on the district. And last time I looked, Central Park was the only school closing and they weren't given the same consideration.
Perhaps one of the reasons we initially we didn't sign up for the Howe Magnet Program was because we weren't thrilled about our kids attending Mt. Pleasant and with the first proposal we have no options. And considering recent developments, I don't want any of our kids going there.

I have to agree with some of the postings- I do believe that if the actual Howe building had the room to house a K-8 school there would be none of these discussions going on. Whether you believe that the building is a historical one or not etc. While additons were done in I believe someone had stated 1950 something- many of the rules governing school construction on existing buildings have changed since then. I would also have to think that with construction uses of "green" or LEED requirements would lead to a immense cost associated with a building of this age. From the heating system, windows, (though I believe some of those may have been replaced) roofs, lighting , handi-cap access etc. Since King can support additions at its current building I believe that is why they are very comfortable with their school expanding to a K-8 . I would like to hear from either the King PTO or some of the families to see if any of this happened at their school when it was decided to expand K-8.